Delivery Beyond Speed: Logistics and Technology Insights from Industry Leaders

Good morning. Good morning, everybody, and welcome to our next session as part of the Smart Mobility Summit here at Industry City. Today, in this session, I’ll be looking at how does delivery beyond speed sorry, how does delivery beyond speed get enhanced through the use of mobile technologies? We’ll be looking at smart inventory, looking at various different implementations and logistics, and very much exploring the logistics and services beyond connectivity and how that can be enhanced through that integration. So I’d like to welcome onto the stage Mark Thurman from IBM, who will be the moderator for this panel. Thank you. Good morning everybody. I’d like to invite my panelists to come up and as they take their seats, we’ll all introduce ourselves. Let’s pick a seat. Excellent. So before my panelists introduce themselves, we might try and do something a little bit different in the middle or in the end. If anybody has a question, a good question, because we’re going to select only the good ones, let us know. I think Irene or one of our colleagues will have a microphone so you can ask a specific question. If not, and you’d like to talk to any of us at the end, we’ll all gather at the end here because typically you might want to have a one on one exchange or exchange business cards. So with that, I’ll reintroduce myself. I’m Mark Thurman. I’m from IBM. I work in the CTO’s office for cloud and I look after innovation and very large initiatives. Good morning, everyone. I’m Gopi. I work for Axiata, MNO based out in Southeast Asia in South Asia, and I run the enterprise business for the group. Hi, good morning, everybody. My name is Tahira Kuhl. I’m the Global Vice President for Dassault Systems working in Business Services, which is logistics and financial services. Very pleased to be here. Hi, everybody. My name is Alan Hicks. I’m the CTO at Mana Drone Delivery. We are a drone delivery business that are delivering consumer facing goods to consumers currently fully operating out of Ireland. Hi, my name is Gianluca Redolfi. I’m the CCO at Satellite IoT. At Satellite IoT, what we’re doing is making sure that satellite connectivity for IoT can be for any use case everywhere in the world. Hi, I’m Nicolas Sconnect, I’m in charge of partnerships for SORACOM. We provide IoT connectivity services. Excellent. Thank you, panelists, welcome. And again, welcome to our audience. And thank you again to the AV team and the GSMA staff for helping us out today. So one thing that initially emerges is we’ve got a satellite provider, we’ve got a drone provider, and as I’ve walked through the event, I’ve seen that these are two big themes. Drones, there’s drones all over the place. We have one on our stand and also satellite. So maybe we’ll jump in on the importance of satellite, satellite with IoT and the mixture with cellular. Yeah. So at Satellite IoT, we have always been thinking that it’s not correct that satellite communication is not available to everybody. There’s something extremely expensive and not accessible. So since the beginning, we have been saying there should be a way to make it standardized and that the device that you need to use to collect a satellite have to be really inexpensive and that anybody can buy it, anybody can use it. And that has been the purpose of what we’ve been doing since the beginning. This pass through having a new standard approved by the 3GPP, which is the new release seventeen. And this allows actually the cellular devices that are connected now to cellular on IoT to also connect without any change to the satellites. So we launched our own constellation and we are working as a natural extension of network for the mobile network operators. And that’s the key thing because now drones or any different application can finally use IoT, even when there’s no cellular coverage. So we’ve got two operators actually, SORACOM at one end, you’ve got a large footprint. What’s your feeling about including satellite into your offer? So we’ve used multi mode to try and connect onto all of our logistics solutions which we’ve had, specifically examples like in Sri Lanka. Demining, as in active mines, which are there through the wars, need to be removed. And logistics become a huge part of that because getting fuel into these machines, which are sort of demining, getting people into the right sort of locations in, and getting the actual mines out is not an easy challenge. So we’ve used cellular networks. We’ve tried to use private networks. We would include things like satellite networks onto that to be able to map that out. And that’s really brought the efficiencies of being able to demine, be very clear about those areas which need to get cleaned out, and just the safety of people within that type of a logistics environment. Right. So you would use both standard licensed and unlicensed networks in a mixed offering? Both licensed, where it’s already been rolled out and a lot of private networks with private LTE and small pocket networks. Which would be licensed in any event. Yes. Okay. So SORACOM, what’s your view of this whole matter? Yeah, so satellite is an interesting extension because panel discussion is about beyond speed. So speed is great, but ubiquity of service, of coverage is key as well. And those non options are a great way to guarantee a continuity of service or service in areas that are not covered by terrestrial networks. So at Soracom, we are looking at expanding our footprint through satellite providers, be it licensed, unlicensed. We already provide access through traditional cellular networks, LPWA networks as well, unlicensed in some cases, and we also provide connections for IP based devices. Most of the times, customer use cases will require hybridization of the connectivity. There is no customer use case that will require only one flavor of connectivity. The whole game is to abstract this complexity and to provide an actual service to the end customer, whatever it is. Condition of the communicating devices and so on. No, it makes perfect sense. So Tahira, role of standards. You want to touch that one? Yes. You can say no. Why not? Ask me anything. I just did. Yeah, I mean, absolutely. You have right across the logistics world, whether it’s rail, air, sea, cargo, freight, you have different standards that obviously have to be met. And as the gentleman over there talked about and the data that’s coming from all of these different technologies, that’s already a challenge in itself. So bringing together all of that data to meet with the standards that are out there changing, that are different depending on which geography you’re in, is a big challenge. That makes sense. So, Alan, drones. Yeah. How do you connect these damn things? Is it is it all on cellular? Are you doing Wi Fi? So so at at at the moment, it’s it’s all cellular. Our particular drones are cellular. And what we discovered is that that’s the best connectivity choice. It’s the lowest cost of entry and it’s the most broadly available. Regulators do like the idea of using satellite as a backup, but it’s costly. The latency is pretty poor on us at the moment. I mean, from looking around the conference over the last few days, I mean, it feels like there’s a lot of exciting things that are going to happen. I mean, five gs is going to be huge for drones in terms of reliability and connectivity. And that might replace the need for dual for multimodal, be it LTE and satellite. But I think what the telcos and the comms industry would need to deliver for drones is a turnkey solution that has the redundancy baked in because drones have enough things going on. Right. That reliable connectivity would be a major piece to solve. And so latency would be an issue. Latency is a big issue. I mean, if a drone is making a maneuver and you need to make a decision, The lower the latency and the lower guaranteed latency is what’s really important. That allows you to decide whether you do your compute on board, which is great, but it’s expensive if you’ve got a massive fleet versus off board. So if you’ve got that connectivity piece, actually reduces the economics of the problem. So are you relying on anything at the edge as a result to kind of lower your ingest endpoint, your drone pricing? Yeah. And is that available everywhere that you operate? This is so today it is, but that obviously limits the footprint of what you can do. So today we’re doing more onboard our drones than we would like to do in the future. And that is because of sometimes you can get really great connectivity and sometimes you can’t. There’s no consistency is the problem. If you knew it was always going to be slow, you could accommodate and work around But it’s that inconsistency that’s a real challenge. How do you guys accommodate drones? You’ve a wide and varied footprint. Yeah. And I think, I mean, I thought I won’t use the word five gs, but that’s really sort of what it’s designed for, in sort of short bursts of data but very quick, as opposed to sort of broad coverage which you get for consumers to do that. We try multiple mechanisms to try and guarantee some sort of bandwidth for industrial type usages. We haven’t done it very extensively for agriculture or drones per se, but in multiple use cases, we’ve tried to do that at least for smart manufacturing industrial type of applications to do that, where the environment’s slightly more controlled as opposed to, I guess, with a drone, you have a maybe two kilometer radius or so to do work with, which just becomes a bit more challenging. Yeah. But I mean, I think like the number one challenge and the reason that we don’t have thousands of drones in the sky or mobile tax or unmanned taxis. It’s not that like you could make this stage fly. It would look ugly and it wouldn’t fly very well and it wouldn’t be very aerodynamic, but you can do it. So challenge with technology isn’t getting the drones in the sky. The challenge is how do you coordinate all of those drones autonomously? So coordinating a fleet. And that rely or that swarm. Exactly. And that relies on comms because not all of the drones in the swarm will be from one provider. There’ll be multi carriers or multi drone providers. So this is kind of the notion of cellular V2X, but in the air a And is there a standard around that or is that you guys are just throwing these things up there and make sure they don’t collide? There are standards evolving as with everything. The ASTM organization has published a very, very good UTM standard, which is unmanned traffic management systems. And there’s things like remote ID and different sensing technology that is coming to help all of this. But again, it all relies on this fabric of comms. It makes perfect sense. So the reason we’re doing all these things is to get a bunch of data. So I guess the big question is how do we put the data in context? And I know, Tahira, that’s a question you and I discussed. So I’ll let you start and then maybe we’ll go see how our colleagues feel about that topic. Sure, yeah. Data is everywhere. It’s coming at us at speed. I like to call it the five V’s of big data. You have volume. You have velocity. You have veracity. You have variety. And you have value. And we spend a lot of time collecting that data, disseminating, integrating, storing that data. But we don’t spend enough time driving the value from that data. And that’s one of the challenges. When you talk about drones and different modes of transport, intermodal, and you’ve got data coming from your fixed assets, your rail yards, your storage sites, and so on. How do you manage all that data? And that’s where we talk about virtual twin, to put that data into context. Makes sense. So, Nicolas, how do you enable all of this? You’ve got a great network. You’re able to bring together networks from all over. Is data a relevant thing for your team to manage? Yep, exactly. And I love your several V’s. Yeah, we have to write down all the V’s. I forgot most of them chose the last one, which is maybe the key one, which is value. And that the key equation that we need to solve and to help our customers solve is: data is all around us. We have a lot of untapped resource to a raw resource to extract from the physical world. Our goal is to help our customers make it so that the total cost of extracting and using this data is below the actual value of it, which has been a challenge so far. So that’s why beyond acting merely as a connectivity provider, we try to work partners with our customers and helping them solve this TCO equation and making sure that this total cost remain good enough and the financial equation works. So it could be reducing the amount of data you actually emit, because then you’ll reduce your energy spending, you’ll reduce your data spending, which is somewhat counterintuitive as the MVNO, which we are. But using those services, you can then build something that actually makes sense and that is going to work in the long run and don’t, let’s say, die in the valley of death of the IoT POCs and so on that we’ve spoken a lot over the last few years. Ah, the deadly POC. So I guess same question to you from a satellite perspective. Are you just facilitating the ingest of the data or the control of the device? Or are you doing anything useful with the data? We just pass over the data. Okay. But there’s something very nice actually. So you’re like a trusted carrier essentially. Yes. You transport. But we are focused on what we call massive IoT, which is millions, billions IoT that you can connect. And this, we believe can just happen with something called narrowband IoT. And it is message based. And it’s completely different than what we have in mind because we’re not talking about gigabyte, megabyte, kilobytes, we’re talking about bytes. We talk about messages, very likely around thirty, thirty five bytes that the IoT device is sending out. So that’s it, is the pipe broken? Is the something not working? The alarm go off? Well, can be monitoring on agriculture. So it can be different level temperature, different levels under the soil level and up, wind, the moisture and so on. And with all this grid of information, there are companies that can provide better information to the farmer. Actually, they promise thirty percent to forty percent increase in production, if I’m not mistaken. So we’re just taking this information from everywhere it is back to the core But the key thing here is that they don’t need to send gigabyte. Right. With just a few bytes, and that’s the case where less is more, take what you really need, analyse it, and probably you have a lot. So again, same question to you, if you don’t mind. So our operator, LinkNet, in Indonesia provides the broadband connectivity for the East Java industrial plant of the area, full of manufacturers within it. The initial attraction for them were tax breaks that they had new pieces of land to build upon. We brought a lot of high speed broadband connectivity to all of them. And what we soon realized is that we could start connecting a lot of the cameras and installations around it, as well as the water table or water levels within Jakarta. Maybe most are familiar, it’s a bit like Holland or Amsterdam, where the water levels are pretty high. That started to affect the logistics of movement within the industrial park. So we correlated information from the cameras and those areas, and that’s just made the logistics within the center a lot more efficient than what it is. So now the attraction for people to relocate into those areas are because the whole industrial sites are lot more efficient compared to other comparable ones. So would you leverage a digital twin type technology? Yes, we would. I mean, we’re trying to do small POCs around that to do that, but there’s a lot of basic connectivity to get up to be able to get to that purpose. Because I know in some of our conversations prior to this, we talked about this notion of a digital twin or a virtual twin. And I know Tahira has a point of view on virtual twin, but why don’t we first define what is a digital twin? I know everybody knows, so keep it. Sure. Yeah. I mean, digital twin versus virtual twin. And a digital twin has existed for many years. Right? It could be a representation, a two d representation of something in electronic format, as simple as that, through to a replica of the real world. The virtual twin, which is really, you know, we’re Dassault Systems. We do a lot of work with our customers on virtual twins. It’s about bringing the real world, you know, really sort of the real world into the virtual world, bringing in the data, bringing in the actual activity that’s happening in the real world. So whether it’s running what if scenarios where you don’t know the results, unlike in gaming or the metaverse, everything’s coded already. You know somebody at the background knows what the results are going to be. Through a virtual twin, the technology will calculate the results for you. And that’s the power of a virtual twin. We’re applying this across, for example, maintenance. You know, when you’re talking about logistics, you have fleet, you have fixed assets, you have moving assets, you’re looking at maintenance and predictive maintenance, you’re looking at supply chains, improving your visibility, but also cost of logistics to reduce your cost of logistics. And of course, demand and supply. This is probably the biggest challenge that’s out there, trying to match your demand with match the supply with the demand, given the changing market dynamics. And that’s where a virtual twin can help you to really manage that data. So that’s in think that’s helpful. So I first would ask what verticals is my esteemed panel focusing on because they’re all going to be different. And then what verticals are you not doing? I can imagine with, for example, satellite, you’re not doing remote medical diagnostics. Parikh, can you repeat, sorry. I couldn’t hear him. If you can repeat the question, sorry. Oh, I’m sorry. What verticals are you focused on? But more specifically, what verticals are you not doing? I don’t think there’s any vertical we’re not addressing. Okay. So But there’s a there’s some some some verticals that are maybe take it, you know, with more intensity at the beginning. Alright. And, we see a lot on logistics, on agriculture, livestock, maritime, oil and gas, forestry, whatever it is, remote and doesn’t require really lot of data. We cannot transport video. So But you’re not transporting voice, are you? Or just emergency No. But there are solution that they can they can compress a few bytes, a small piece of voice. I’m stuck on the elevator or something like that. Okay, Nicolas, over to you, same question. Verticals that you’re focused on and verticals that you just don’t want to touch. Yeah. So as a connectivity provider, we are pretty generic in that sense. But in IoT, address, let’s say, the usual suspects. So asset tracking, which is maybe more horizontal than the vertical, but agriculture, medical devices, point of sale device, that kind of stuff. What we do not do, because we don’t do everything, of course, for example, if you need live remote control of your drone, that’s not something where we are going to work on because we don’t provide real time, a guaranteed real time solution. But if you are looking for where is the shipment of your new set of drones, the status of that shipment, the status of the drone itself, a kill switch maybe because it has been taken away by someone before coming back to base, Those are the use cases we are going to help you address. Over to you. Same question. Mining ports, airports, logistics areas are our sort of focus. Things we do a little less of is around healthcare, agriculture type of area, which we really don’t sort of focus upon. Is that because of where your footprint lies? On both sides. So one on the infrastructure side, because that’s really where the big spend is. There’s a lot of push from governments to try and modernize. On the other end, for things like fishery, agriculture, in our footprint, it’s a very fragmented market. It’s very small farms, small holders who do that. But it’s a lot of small farms. Yes. And we’re not really sort of good at that to reach out to do. So would you use partners to maybe help the small farmer or an aggregation of farmers? We would. And then that’s slowly starting to consolidate from an industry perspective too. We’re starting to see cooperatives or groupings of the smaller farmers and then it becomes easier to sort of implement tech, see some value around that. There’s a lot more vertical integration through that farming and poultry industry. It makes perfect sense. So one of the things I like to often say is that this is a team sport. Nicolas, I think, stated it in the right way, nobody can do everything well. So how do you partner? And we’ll just go down the line this time. How do you partner to deliver a solution? How do you team? So the easier ones for us are sort of around IT, ICT transformation that we can sort of do most of that ourselves. When we start to focus on industries, we rely on partners who are more consultative, a bit more strategic, which we do, as well as sort of hyperscalers. We rely with people like the AWS of the world. You’re reading over my shoulder for my next question. Thanks for showing it to me all of the notes to do that. We’ll come back to that as a question. And some go to market partners. There are people who are sort of stronger in particular industries to do that. So we use them or partner them to do that, especially for small farmers and cooperatives around that too. So you’ll create an offering and then land it on a hyperscaler or Yes. Okay. And that’s predominantly to sort of drive down cost in doing that. It turns out to be a lot more of an OpEx model than us investing into it. Makes perfect sense, Tahira. Same question. How do you partner? Yeah. It’s a difficult question actually because That’s why I asked it. Dassault Systems being in twelve industries. We have partners. We have a lot of partners. But if I was selfish and only talked about the industry that I’m responsible for logistics, focusing on that obviously, across the multimodal forms of transport, we have a lot of partners from data providers through to partners who even on the manufacturing side, where we’re involved with our partners. So it’s a very difficult question because we do have a lot of partners. We recently joined forces with Nokia on the five gs, which is obviously a very hot topic. And providing five gs through a virtual twin is one of the things we’re working on. Excellent. Alan, you make drones and you make lots of cool stuff. How do you deliver that? How do you team up with somebody? Yeah. We team up with a lot of people different factors. So like we’re, we do everything from manufacturing, designing, manufacturing the drones, testing to operating the drones. So at all levels, we’ve got lots and lots of partnerships. I mean, I think given the conference we’re at, I mean, I’ll talk about our comms partnership. And so we’re partnered with a company based out of Ireland, Cubic Telecom. And they actually simplify our comm stack a lot for us by working with the MNOs on our behalf. So that’s one of the good partnerships that we have that leverage the MVNO strategy, which I think Nicolas might like as So for us, it’s one solution that gives us access to a broad range of MNOs. Right. Well, in the world of today, actually, it’s completely different because maybe a century ago, you had to build everything yourself. Right. Now you need to be very good at one thing and do it very well. You have a a absolutely great ecosystem around on on what can be commodities that you can basically partner with and be the best one in what to do. So we are using a lot of partners. And what we do is unique and this is the only thing we’re doing, which is basically the software, the antenna and a big part of the satellite is done by ourselves. The rest is through partners. So what kind of partners would you want? Other operators? So you’re here. This is seventeen eighty buildings above. Can give you a lot of so you have partners helping you to build the satellites. You have partners like SpaceX to launch the satellite. Right. We cannot build our own rocket to do it. It will take more time than it it took to to SpaceX. We are partners for the ground stations. We are partners for all the the development of the codes. But specifically, one of the key thing when you are a satellite company, if you look around in the history, most of them are not here anymore. So that’s very risky. It’s a risky business space. Capital intensive. That’s a risky business. Yeah. I’m not saying that it’s the only one. But the the point is that you really need to be to be able to sell what you what you have. Right. And when you have a constellation which is LEO, low Earth orbit, you basically cover everywhere of the planet. A hundred percent of planet is covered. You need to have also your sales. They need to be global. Locally, very strong, but you need to have it everywhere. So one the key partners that we have commercially are the mobile network operators or the MVNOs. We are not just standard toward the devices. We also standard toward the MNOs. So we act like a mobile network operator ourselves. So any telecom operator can interact with us without any effort, like with a roaming interface. So we are just the extension of the mobile operators everywhere there’s no coverage. So you would work with his team as an example? I can work with basically everybody, yes. Nicholas? Yep, we agree about what you said about IoT being a team sport. A puzzle that we need partners, need to leverage this ecosystem to solve this kind of Tetris game somehow. And it goes from network operators for us, so like satellite, for example, that could help us expand our footprint, module makers, device makers, solution providers, system integrators that will help get deep down into the actual verticals with niche expertise. And last but not least, the customers themselves, which we consider a partner because we have a shared interest in seeing them succeed because we are not going to succeed as a connectivity provider on our own. And that’s sharing that value that we create, that we help the customer extract, so then we can be successful. But it’s not like one company can do the whole thing. Or could, but could you do it well, fast, and at a reasonable cost as well? Right, right. So I’ll again invite, if anyone in the audience has a question, just raise your hand. I know it’s difficult in this format. Don’t be shy if you do have a question. Irene over there has a microphone and we’ll take your question. We’ll keep moving, but in case you do, just let us know. So the big question of the hyperscalers. Friend or foe? How do we view the hyperscalers? You’re smiling, so what do you think? How do you work with them? How do you ensure they don’t eat your lunch? Frenemies. Frenemies. I hope there are no hyperscalers here. I don’t think we’ve got to the right balance per se, at least I can maybe speak for the region which we work in, where there’s a huge demand for connectivity. And so then the hyperscalers are clients of us because we need to provide them that. There’s a huge demand on the small and medium businesses, which then we bundle hyperscaler products, M365, GWS. And there, it’s a balance because we are really a channel into market. We then don’t own that relationship with the client when we bundle that. You co own it or you’re Yes, to do that. So it’s at a balance on both sides to do that. And I’m sure that there’s going to be a period of time where that co exists. And also some of the challenges. I mean, the compute side, I think that the hyperscalers are pretty dominant and then ubiquitous across the region. Around collaborate tools, apps around that, there are enough sort of local flavors, which provide innovative, competitive solutions to it. So might you balance between different hyperscalers? So there’s a workload on GCP and a workload on AWS. And we take that approach on both sides because we are also large consumers of hyper scalers. We always take a sort of a multi cloud approach and we do that to our clients. We position ourselves into the client as a cloud expert and we don’t say we’re a Microsoft expert or a Google expert. Are you cloud agnostic expert? Yes, to a large extent we are. And we help clients migrate from one brand to the other. Okay. To do that, we carry a lot of optimization tools for each of the hyperscalers to then show what that value is to the client and if they choose to move. Which makes sense. So Nicolas, I’ll go over to you. Hyperscalers, friend or foe? Well, I’m in charge of partnerships, so of course everybody’s a friend. That’s the easy answer. But of course, we are working with them, especially as part of what we provide is simplified cloud to cloud integration. And that’s the differentiator that we can provide. And as you said, being as agnostic as possible, even if our funding team is formerly AWS. We have this background as well. But making sure that for our customers, we provide the easy access to their cloud infrastructure as possible and continuity of service. You mentioned GCP. Last year, GCP discontinued part of their IoT offering. That’s right. So what we did is making sure that any customer relying on that can easily adapt the infrastructure, switch to another provider if needed, but making sure that in the end, in its ever changing environment, you can still have continuity of services and not having your business put upside down with any change. You bring up a good point, which would be an interesting different panel on what happens when the generic IoT platforms then become specific again. But that’s not this panel. But we went through the same struggles at my company where we had a very generic offering and now we’re very vertically targeted. So Alan, I’ll go over to you hyperscalers, friend or foe? Friend is definitely enabler. I think I would go as far as to say, we’re Amazon cloud users ourselves and that’s a massive enabler for us. But I mean, I think in the last five years and the cloud has become more of a commodity. And I think Google have caught up, Microsoft have caught up with Azure and I think it makes it much easier to shop around. So there’s now many enablers. But no, I think it’s a lot of business wouldn’t be here today without those guys. Well, AWS sort of or Amazon specifically the notion of drone delivery kind of created the awareness, I think, around the market from and I think you’d probably benefit from that a bit. Yes. I mean, like, yes. And not to get specific on the delivery. Yes. I mean, Jeff, I think, promised it, I think it’s thirteen or fourteen years ago now that Amazon would have drones in the sky. I think this year they’ve started a trial for the first time. I think they’re planning on about three thousand deliveries this year. So yeah, no, I mean, Google in the same vein have their wing project, which is probably the most successful drone delivery business. And they’re currently operating in Australia pretty extensively and small operation in Ireland. But friends of ours, they’re great. They help us with regulation. Big companies can open doors that we can’t. Interesting. Gianluca, hyperscalers, friend or foe? We are hyperscaler agnostic. No, I have no comment. Was that an option? Tahira? Yeah. I mean, we very much work with the hyperscalers. Yeah. I mean, of course, differentiation, very important. So they don’t eat you for breakfast. But, yeah, definitely. And will you manage between, as we were saying, a multi cloud, different hyperscalers? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Excellent. So I think we might land on kind of a fun topic, which is the applicability of metaverse to this area. I know in the satellite area might be interesting, but what are you guys seeing in terms of metaverse in enterprise and industrial when it comes to logistics as an example? I think we have quite a lot of at least tech, which is related to mobile or mobile usage. It’s the rah rah part used to be with consumer. People using it for gaming, for individual experience. And I think that’s where it’s going to take off initially. Initially. We’ve seen some industrial use cases where they’re manufacturing in areas where they’ve done that. And it’s a great device because you see beyond what the visual is, even through material you work with and in wax to do that. Can you describe a use case in that area that you’re actually, that’s not a POC? We were talking, Nicolas, I think mentioned POC earlier on. And this is not something which is in our markets, but if you end up going to like the Porsche factory per se, they’re a bunch of four, five technicians in a unit which are putting things together. And it used to be that they were very visual, they used to read monitors to what they were able to do. And today, they wear masks around them where the readings are visual to them. They’re right in front of you. And they’re able to then picture what’s within the devices as they fix that together. That’s just really sort of brought up the speed of the production, the quality of the production, bringing down the defects to do that. Now there’s still very niche and more higher end type of manufacturing, but I think it’s a period of time where that would start to get further down and into that. So Tahira, I think you want to jump in. Yes, because actually exactly what you’ve described. And these are not POCs. These are actual customers who are using These are real deployments. Yeah, real deployments. In fact, if you visit our booth, you’ll be able to see an example exactly that, where you have people working remotely in their own locations but collaborating together in a virtual world, whether it’s from a technician perspective. And we’ve got an aircraft example of sort of managing the whole aircraft, the build, the design, the whole equipment, collaborating, making decisions, but virtually. And that’s kind of a real world example. I think it’s interesting. From a drone perspective, would you imagine managing a drone swarm, for example, with Metaverse? Is that applicable? Have you tried Potentially. I mean, like currently regulation states it’s a one to one operation. And the permissions that drone companies are going for, particularly in the U. Is a one to twenty operation. So even if you get to a one to one hundred and fully autonomous, there will always be some form of human oversight. And, I mean, why not? The metaverse would be a perfect environment for that. I mean, do you get a much more rich sense of data? You know? So, yeah. No. It it would be it would be a great experience, I think, for remote pilots to be able to drag and drop and drag and see different Nothing could be more trendy than a dude with a ARVR headset managing drones in the air. This reminds me a little of a Tom Cruise movie many years ago where they’re swiping stuff around and waving their arms around. But but also then you can work at home in the metaverse Yes. Which is great for delivery. So Yeah. I like that thought. Actually, for us, I mean, we don’t we don’t have we don’t use metaverse, but the the the way the the the fact that you ship to space, the satellites, it’s like if we think all the time in the metaverse because the it’s in space. It’s a place where we I’ve never been. I I will never be probably. So Never been in space. It’s it’s a metaverse there. There was an old TV show that started out with Space, the final frontier. Maybe my American friends will remember that called Star Trek, the original one for us older people. Yes. I looked at you for that one. I’m sorry. So Nicolas, metaverse and the ability for your [customers] to — us that somehow just another interface with the data we discussed earlier on that we extract this data and that’s a new way to access it, interact with it. So be it metaverse, as you say, with a VR headset, be it a minority report interface, be it someone in front of a boring SCADA dashboard. Those are different interfaces, different ways to interact with the same data in the end. And then I would say it’s up to operational level what makes the most sense. Beyond the buzzword, maybe if you want to, you need to raise from investors, maybe Metaverse is the best choice than the SCADA dashboard. The whole thing is what’s going to be actually the more efficient and the more appropriate way to interact with this physical data. Perfect. We have ninety seconds left. So before I thank my panel, I just want to give and I didn’t prepare you for this, but quick hit. What’s the topic that we’re going to talk about next year? Gopi. Good question. And if you don’t have one, just move to No, I don’t have one. Virtual Virtual twins. Drones? Well, everything’s five gs this year, so it has to be seven gs next year, I think. Well, of course, the commoditization of satellite communication that is happening. Clearly, think non terrestrial options is going to be a big topic and a way to expand the footprint and the way you can communicate terrestrially. Excellent. Want to thank the audience. Want to thank my great panelists again. I want to thank the AV staff. You guys did a great job. Thank you to the GSMA. Thank you. Enjoy the rest of the show.